01 Feb Ep. 51 – 10 Ways to Maximize the Sales Price of Your Home

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In this episode, Realtor Adam Kruse and Realtor Shannon St. Pierre give their 10 seller tips to maximizing the sales price of your home. Find out why selling your house needs to come from an informational not emotional standpoint. Also, Mortgage Broker John Charlton of USA Mortgage gives his Mortgage Market Minute update on the 3 P’s of buying a home while still living in your current home

Email questions to PODCAST@HermannLondon.com

WHAT’S INSIDE

0:28 John Charlton from USA Mortgage gives his Mortgage Market Minute update on the 3 P’s of buying a home while still living in your current home. The 3 P’s are plan, plan, and plan. 1.) Financial game plan. 2.) Plan out your move with professionals. 3.) Execute that plan

1:40 Adam introduces his co-host, Shannon St. Pierre

2:25 What are 10 things sellers can do to maximize the sales price of your home?

3:15 Do Realtors do lunch and learn presentations to teach people about buying and selling homes?

3:20 Do companies do continuing education for their employees just as a bonus value add even if it has nothing to do with what the company does?

4:06 Is the weekend after the Super Bowl the big push for people to start buying houses?

5:22 What is a pre-inspection? How does it show a potential buyer that you take care of your house? How does a pre-inspection help a seller appropriately price a house? How does a pre-inspection help set buyer’s expectations?

12:10 Should you have a copy of the pre-inspection sitting out on the counter during showings?

12:30 Should a buyer who gets a pre-inspection expect the seller to not do their own inspection too?

13:10 What inspections should a seller do? Sewer lateral? Main building inspection? Radon?

14:07 What is curb appeal? Should you get your roof washed?

15:26 How can you download the free Hermann London Home Staging Guide?

16:40 Does a home need to be white-glove clean when selling it?

18:00 Is it okay for a buyer to ask a seller to clean their home if it is already on the market?

20:40 What is the smell test when it comes to selling a home? Should you wash your curtains? Can painting help with how a house smells?

22:25 What is an ionizer and how does it help with smells?

23:52 Do Glade Plug-Ins make the smell of a house worse?

24:10 What does it mean to declutter a home when you are selling it? Should you rent a storage unit while trying to sell your house?

26:00 How does depersonalizing a home help sell it?

27:59 What repairs and updates are needed to sell a home?

30:19 Should a seller do updates if they don’t know what the buyer wants?

32:00 Is it okay to simply ask the paint store and carpet store what their most popular color is and buy that?

35:00 Why would you replace a perfectly good brass door knob with a brushed nickel one?

36:30 How can updates be considered subjective when it comes to selling your house?

37:15 Why should you talk to a Realtor before doing those subjective updates to your home?

39:03 How does staging and photos help sell a home?

40:00 Can you use your own furniture when staging your home for selling?

43:30 Can you pay for home staging after closing?

48:20 How many photos are needed for the listing when selling a home?

51:30 When the listing goes live make sure all the information is correct

52:40 Why is pricing your home right the first time so important? Overpricing your house means it will stay on the market longer

55:50 What is the problem with underpricing your home?

58:20 If you are going to live in your house while selling it, make yourself available and don’t turn down a showing

1:01:01 Contact Shannon by calling 314-583-0070 or email her at Shannon@LivingTowerGrove.com

 

TRANSCRIPTION

Adam: live from the rooftop of the Hermann London real estate group in beautiful downtown Maplewood is the st. Louis realtor podcast with your host Adam Kruse

John: hello this is John Charlton at USA mortgage and this is your mortgage market minute so you own a home and you want to move upgrading downsizing relocating this is an exciting thing but it also can be anxiety inducing so to help you along I want to introduce you to the three P’s of buying a new home while selling your current home simply put the three P’s or just plan plan and plan number one you need a financial gameplan mostly anxiety people have with this process is tied to how they will navigate it financially well I have two mortgages if so for how long how much will I need for a down payment how much will my current home sell for that brings me to point number two plan out your move with professionals you should contact your loan officer your realtor and in some cases your financial advisor to fill in the details of a timeline as to when you should be putting your home on the market when you should close on your new home and when you should actually move number three execute that plan might sound cliche but once your plan is in place take it one step at a time need someone to help you with your plan call me John Charlton at USA Mortgage 314-517-0262

Adam: welcome welcome everybody to the st. Louis realtor podcast live from the rooftop or the Hermann London real estate group a beautiful downtown Maplewood Missouri I’m your host Adam Kruse broker owner of the Hermann London group and I’ve got with me here my co-host

Shannon:  hello

Adam:  Shannon st. Pierre realtor extraordinaire

Shannon: yes my real estate agent here at Hermann London specializing mainly in the city

Adam:  mainly in the city you’re the city girl

Shannon: mainly in South City yes so we’re

Adam: mainly South City

Shannon: buyers sellers investors a lot of investors

Adam:  yeah

Shannon:  in the city

Adam: there’s a lot of investors these days in there

Shannon: yes

Adam:  okay well we’re excited to have you today because we are going to go over this beautiful listed Shannon made and she calls it ten things to do to maximize the sales price of your home

Shannon:  yes so this is for sellers and so I did a presentation the other day for a company for it was a lunch and learn which I occasionally do and I really paired down the ten things that really will help you maximize the sale price no matter what your pricing strategy is even if you’re going to market as is

Adam: let me ask you real quick you you went to some company’s office and you made a presentation to them about selling their home but it was not a real estate company

Shannon: no it was a not a real estate company so it was a company does lunch and learns

Adam: okay

Shannon:  company so just had kind of a contact to there and so went in and did a seller’s presentation

Adam: so someone watching the show listening to the show today would you go to their office and do a presentation like that too

Shannon: yes so I have a buyer’s presentation and a seller’s presentation that I’ve done for these lunch and learns it companies

Adam: interesting okay because we have lunch and learns here but they’re always using real estate related kind of

Shannon: rights

Adam:  and so there’s other companies that are not real estate related they’re just trying to add value to their employees

Shannon:  right so it’s a value add for the employees they do these continual like educational things most of the companies just do a range of topics during their lunch and learn so anything from financial to health and then I then you know some for buyers and then this one was for potential so for sellers so

Adam: okay and so here we are were the weekend before the Super bowl January 2019

Shannon: yes

Adam:  we’re kind of deciding or we’ve I’ve always heard and I don’t know if you agree with this or not but supposedly the weekend after the Super bowl is the big weekend the big push for people to start kind of buying houses

Shannon: right so I don’t know that I’ve necessarily heard that but I think it would make a lot of sense specifically because of the timing

Adam: yeah you know everyone always thinks oh the hot market is in the spring and I guess it’s just kind of gotten earlier over the years people are just sort of start looking a little bit earlier and earlier so I guess anyway our point is that if you’re thinking about selling your home you’re probably really thinking about it now because the holidays are past and all that kind of stuff and we’re gonna give you ten tips today things you can do to make sure you get the top dollar for your property right

Shannon: yes

Adam:  so let’s go ahead Shannon jump right in for us

Shannon: right so these are the ten things that really speak to the psyche of a buyer so these play into those those hurdles that we tend to come against when we’re showing buyers houses

Adam: right

Shannon: so by removing those hurdles you’re removing those objections and then thereby for getting a buyer closer to making an offer

Adam:  okay

Shannon: so the more you can remove and take care of the less they’ll have in their heads and the more they’re apt to make an offer so number one pre inspections so I don’t know if you agree with this one or not I feel like you would be you’re gonna say

Adam:  okay I’m ready to debate I don’t agree with that one

Shannon:  I knew you wouldn’t I totally knew okay so tell me why you don’t agree

Adam:  well tell us what it is first

Shannon:  okay so pre inspections are just so the homeowner themselves has an inspection done by a certified in the home inspector just as a buyer will at some point when they get an offer on their home so the point being is that you can have an inspector go through your home and determent go and make a list of the things that need attention that can be fixed or

John: okay I don’t so I’m not saying that I don’t necessarily agree with it but I think we can talk about the pros and cons

Shannon: okay

John:  the pros are that the seller now knows what’s coming what are looking at like in terms of expenses and costs and fixes that the buyer is probably gonna ask for the pros to me are that the seller can now do some of the work themselves depending on what it is they can do some of the work themselves or have their cousin come over and do some of the work or whatever it is

Shannon: as spouse to buyer does the inspection they request repairs now they’re requesting certified or licensed nor to have the repair a simple handyman repair done versus doing it yourself

John: yeah

Shannon:  if you’re if qualified

John:  so then the pros are then once the buyer gets the inspection done they won’t find as many things ideally because they you know they probably fixed a lot of the stuff already

Shannon: right

John: right right are there other pros that I’m missing

Shannon: yes so um I think it is I I don’t think that when you go to sell your house it’s the time to stick your head in the sand yeah um you know you can only float on that River of denial for so long

John: yeah

Shannon:  okay so I I think it’s just best to know be in the know know what buyers are buyer inspectors are going to find and I think one of the best examples of why this is to your benefit is I had a buyer a couple months ago and they put an offer on a house and there were eight offers we won we were well over asking price

John: yeah winning at least

Shannon:  yeah well winning right but here’s the thing so we go to do our inspections pretty quickly actually and it wasn’t that there was anything major wrong but there was a long list of stuff I mean even I was starting to feel overwhelmed all kinds of little stuff just tons of it though and she backed out of the contract she didn’t even want to respond within on the inspection notice same

John:  your buyer didn’t even want

Shannon: my buyer said you know what this is overwhelming it all this says to me basically is they’re not paying attention to the house and they weren’t taking care of it I’m out so we do a mutual release we back out of the contract and you know I know for a fact that there’s no way all seven of those other buyers could have found homes in that short amount of time however it went back on the market and it sat on the market so those other seven buyers clue clearly didn’t want it either because now they’re going oh it must be defective and even though they had the thought this inspection report to possibly show the other buyers agents they were just in their head it’s a whole new mindset

John: okay

Shannon: so it sat on the market and ended up selling for well under the original asking price

John: okay so we don’t know the point is we don’t know what psyche of the buyer is going to be right and so they were freaked out about it they thought this house must have been owned by scumbags essentially who don’t know how to take care of their home

Shannon: they just not paying attention not doing the maintenance and yeah yeah I mean it just wasn’t yeah it was just a lot of stuff so I think having a pre inspection gives you that opportunity to button up the house and address those eat all those little fixes you know that you can hire a handyman to come over and and address and then it just looks like you’re paying attention and that you’re taking care of the house and that to the psyche of a buyer says hey if you’re taking care of this house this is a really great solid investment I want someone who’s been taking care of a house

John: what if I get my home inspected and I find out about some big problem with the home now I have to disclose it

Shannon: right but so again that river of denial is only you know okay [???] the buyers if it’s a true major defect I don’t care if it’s a inept home inspector they’re probably most likely going to find it anyway so again if this is just getting ahead of it and it allows you to go to market and say okay I’m not gonna fix not going to address it but here we’re gonna appropriately price the house and we’re going to disclose it because we’re gonna just be honest or and  it allows you to go maybe get some information on how it can be fixed and what the cost would be and then that it can be presented to potential buyers because the worst thing you can do is just leave it up to buyers thinking you know because they think oh my gosh it’s gonna cost a million dollars I’m like the houses in cost two hundred thousand but then their heads are going but this is gonna cost a million dollars so it’s just it’s the worst and scariest scenarios and the unknown is always worse than just having the facts

Adam: well I do totally agree with that I think you know we’re we’re walking through a house we’re with a buyer and they see something that needs to be fixed right like there’s a leak in the roof you know or something like that you know in the end the ceiling of the bathroom on the first floor right and they just assume oh gosh that’s gonna be thousands to fix that

Shannon: right we’re gonna have to rip out this whole bathroom

Adam:  oh my gosh we’re tearing the house down so they assume that it’s gonna cost a lot and so they might not even buy the house or when they do make their request they will ask for a ton of money and your point is pay either fix it ahead of time so they don’t it’s not even like

Shannon: address the issue and then fix whatever

Adam:  they don’t want to or you can’t or whatever depending on what the thing is would you just like take the bed and tape it right on the thing go hey here’s the bed it’s gonna be 200 hours to fix

Shannon: yeah or you know where the book is the sign-in book I would just leave out some information for it and I do think that you can use these pre inspections for marketing as well so you can’t leave them out give agents access or have the copy sitting out on the the counter when buyers come to the home because I think when again you’re taking away that unknown and now they at least know and people rather know and feel like they know what they’re getting into and it’s easier for them to make an offer

Adam: should the seller expect that the buyer is not going to get their own inspection that

Shannon:  I said no way no way I don’t I think that if a buyer’s agent is working in the best interest of the buyer they’re going to highly encourage yes they’re still gonna get their own inspection and that inspectors certainly going to come up with their own list of stuff they’re gonna find different things but it’s not gonna be a long list and at least still know if there’s anything major

Adam: so okay when you when I first read this and you said I was gonna be against it and I was I was thinking like duh don’t bother having NIM over just have us over we can come over and kind of like point out the things that people are gonna see I think you may have convinced me that it’s not a bad idea

Shannon:  I rock

Adam: what what all inspections should the seller do should they do radon and sewer lateral I mean they should just do a lateral don’t you think

Shannon: I think you know I really have anyone that’s ever gonna walk on a sewer lateral I think it’s just usually the I would just have the main building inspection done

Adam: so why not the sewer lateral

Shannon: go right ahead because I do think that that

Adam:  because the buyers not gonna walk away from it because they’re gonna assume the seller is gonna pay for it

Shannon: yes yes

Adam:  same thing with radon

Shannon: and sewer lateral you go fix the sewer lateral it’s one thing versus going here you need to do this this is in creating this really long list of things and I it’s a pretty expensive I’d say save the money put it towards the building inspection and make the house look buttoned up

Adam: okay I think we beat that one to death

Shannon:  yep

Adam:  we do want them to have us over though right and kind of talk about what we see and what we notice and little things because the inspectors not going to point out like oh the baseboards need to be touched up

Shannon:  okay so yep

Adam: yes all right what’s the next one

Shannon: so number two curb appeal so most often people think okay let’s throw out a nice potted colorful plants or something of the sort maybe a few bushes but this is really much more about taking a methodical approach and for the exterior just as you would for the interior and what I mean by that is you know there’s these companies that come out and we’ll wash roofs power washing yeah so from literally top to bottom you can make a roof look in great condition if not almost new by just power washing it

Adam: curb appeal is always all about kind of like first impressions matter

Shannon:  yeah so I mean from the moment that someone pulls up to your house you want everything to be just as pristine as we’re gonna talk about as inside because you don’t want them to start creating this mental list of things need to be done like oh the front porch needs to be painted hmm that roof is looking a little old I wonder how old the roof is you know how this and all those questions that start to come up that keep them from moving forward to that finish line that finish line being an offer

Adam:  well you know on our website at HermannLondon.com we have where people can download and get like our home staging guides and

Shannon: step-by-step room by room guys

Adam: step-by-step room by room guide but one of the things that was interesting to me and that guide as it talks about like the front door you know as Realtors were often the ones kind of opening the front door but you go up and if the front door is kind of like all beaten up and scratched around the handle and the door knobs all junkie and stuff it does totally set a first impression you know

Shannon: right and I think what sellers have to remember is that Realtors are walking up to that front door and they’re not just walking through you’re standing there for a good 30 seconds to a minute at least

Adam: yeah

Shannon: while we’re getting the key out so in that time frame buyers are sitting there looking around looking up looking down and they’re starting to make mental notes if things need attention and so already that list begins and so do the objections

Adam: okay love it we’ve had you do get a couple sort of nice weekends throughout the winter this weekend it was snowing on Saturday and it was like 45

Shannon: yes specific [???] but next couple of weekends are gonna be great

Adam:  it was a good day to I went to one of my rental properties and I was working and stuff it was a good day to get out and do these kind of home projects

Shannon: yes yes

Adam:  all right what’s next

Shannon: so number three cleaning so this is a big thing in mine and I always I think I’ve said this to you before and I’ve think of another podcast too I think a home should be White Glove clean and what I mean by that is someone should be able to walk into a home with a boy a pair of white gloves and wipe take their hands across any and every surface at the top of door jambs all the lighting fixtures all the way down to the baseboards and still walk out with white gloves

Adam: I’m having flashbacks to my childhood my mom would come and check my cleaning job and she would always find somewhere to look that I’m like I don’t think the Cleveland

Shannon: yeah and most people do so I will say that most people can get so many of these items on this list dead-on right and spectacular and cleaning it’s the one that people fall off on all the time so it’s just and it’s not personal I mean this is just business right so selling your house really needs to become from a point of information not emotional standpoint so I really encourage that you hire a cleaning service unless you’re really willing to go from corner to corner from top to bottom get on your hands and knees and start scrubbing baseboards and walls and lighting fixtures and light switches and all these sort i’m hire a cleaning service that does this it’s well worth the money and when someone walks into a house that’s absolutely spotless it again plays into that psyche that room was well cared for and it’s a and so it starts to calm their nerves

Adam:  and every buyer is different and some buyers are super sensitive to that kind of stuff and you know I can picture somebody going this is icky I want to go

Shannon: right and it happens all the time so I can’t tell you how often like I’ll be sitting at home that has so many of these things right and yet we will be there yet the buyers will be like so are they going to clean and I’m like no this is clean because this is on the market here you go and then they go can we ask to have it cleaned

Adam:  yeah

Shannon:  is a response because I’m like then what clean how you want to hire somebody but then what then we need to give them a list and then it just get starts to get complicated and this conversation starts to get out of control a little bit and then they start just kind of going oh and they back down and the whole excitement starts to deflate

Adam:  yeah we really talked about cleaning a lot with property management stuff because you know we have to have tenants clean and stuff like that and everyone’s definition of clean is definitely different your definition is absolutely different than my definition and you know you I guess what you’re saying is let’s make it so the buyer doesn’t have to think about that so the conversation doesn’t even break each of

Shannon: these really are about removing those hurdles those objections and those questions

Adam: because most likely even the seller no matter who they hire they’re probably still not going to be perfectly satisfied because cleaning companies even don’t do a perfect job

Shannon:  yeah and there are some that kind of specialize in this but right so higher cleaning service to do a majority of it make sure you tell them to get on the hands and knees and start doing the baseboard a little right you’re not hiring to do your laundry you’re hiring them to do the lighting fixtures the light switches the doors

Adam: yeah the stuff that you probably have sort of not even noticed maybe because you’re you clean your house all the time let’s assume everyone on this podcast cleans their houses all the time

Shannon:  right on a regular basis

Adam:  and so but they probably there’s probably things that they’re not cleaning that they don’t even see

Shannon:  right and some people just don’t that’s just you know any husbands and wives have different definitions of cleaning I mean yeah unless a dust bunny is literally biting my husband in the but like but where I’m like I like everything dusted

Adam:  yeah I mean I I remember years ago with our office I I just don’t notice things that are that dirty and you you guys I think you even had to come to me like can we have the office cleaned a little bit more often I’m like what do you mean

Shannon: right

Adam:  and so I’m like I never even noticed but yeah so now we do them okay number four

Shannon: so the smell test and

Adam: the smell test

Shannon: the smell test you know every home has a smell and again in some personal it’s just cooking odors from cooking living life odors pets cleaning burning candles all that just kind of so settles into the fabrics of your home and create a smell so it’s not that it’s necessarily bad I certainly have come and gone into homes where it is slightly offensive yeah I mean if that’s literally the only thing in the entire world that’s wrong with that home this is not gonna inhibit somebody from making an offer perhaps but when you it’s again this is all about playing into that psyche of the buyer and removing anything that could become an objection and these are the things you have to control over so you need to go through this kind of goes in hands and hand with the cleaning and you need to wash everything so take down curtains if they can’t be washed so I’m in the dryer for 10 15 20 minutes with the dryer sheet with a couple drops of essential oil to freshen him up same thing with pillows but bedspreads bed skirts and he am everything that can be washed wash it there if it can be at least own and dryer do that as far as rugs and couches you know for breeze

Adam: we’re gonna talk about painting later can I talk about it now

Shannon: we are gonna talk about painting but it kind of goes hand I think

Adam: some painting might help with the smell face

Shannon:  yeah so because smells believe it or not really do embed into the walls I mean and there’s nothing better of an example than a smoker house that has a smoker inside it absorbs into the wall so you can do paint back just by painting the wall you will take care of a lot of that smell too

Adam:  and then have you ever used an ionizer

Shannon: I have not though I have brought it up for like somewhat when we’re looking at a house where there’s an obvious smoker

Adam: yeah we one of my rental properties recently the tenants moved out and they smoked and actually they had like a guest there for like two weeks who smoked in the house and so I had to hire a company that brought out an ionizer

Shannon: did it work

Adam:  it did actually

Shannon: okay

Adam:  that’s crazy it worked

Shannon: okay but you can hire a company you can rent its first is having to buy it right

Adam:  yeah it’s funny because looking into it I think I paid more to have them come out to do their ionization then I would have if I just bought the machine myself

Shannon: that’s it okay

Adam:  but I think that was because like they did their normal service and then they ended up leaving it extra long because there were like that smell didn’t go away or something like that but it was expensive I think I paid $500 to have it iein eyes but I guess our thought was that I would have gotten at least $500 less if it would have smelled like smoke or I would have had to like repaint everything yeah you know which I don’t want to paint the whole house so

Shannon:  and then cost it at least $500 to have someone come in and paint

Adam:  yeah so if you have a really bad smell you can consider using an ionizer your mind

Shannon: opening up windows for a couple days every day to kind of just do the full air exchange in addition to those other things we just mentioned

Adam:  you mentioned Glade plugins are not a solution

Shannon: I did Oh gosh have you not walked into a house first they just

Adam:  it’s too much smoke

Shannon: oh it’s nauseating and I’ve had buyers turn around walk out and end tours of the home early just because it’s too overwhelming

Adam: okay so we want to get rid of the smell [???]

Shannon: not covered that because the cover doesn’t work it just mixes with it and makes it worse

Adam:  number five

Shannon: declutter declutter declutter and then go through and declutter again

Adam:  is that are you this the what’s the new Netflix show everybody’s watching

Shannon: alright Kumari

Adam: it’s like tidying up or something like that no it’s all about that though right it’s not really all about

Shannon: that but it really is about moving and you know what you’re moving pack it up anyway pack up everything that you that’s not essential to this process or adds to the house and you know put it away I don’t recommend necessarily just throwing it into the basement or the garage you know how you’ve walked in the garages and open the door and it’s just damp yeah cuz so full of boxes because that just conveys there’s not enough room in the home itself so I do highly recommend getting a storage unit or one of those pods that they will deliver to your house and you can fill it up they’ll come and take it away and then deliver it to you wherever your new places

Adam: okay so sometimes when I go to somebody’s house and I’m kind of you know we’re talking about what to do to get the home ready and we’re in the kitchen and I’m like oh boy how am I gonna handle this one you know and then I say you get to have two things on the counter

Shannon: right

Adam:  everything else is gone and they look at me like I’m crazy like what about my coffeemaker I’m like alright that’s one you know what about my nice block probably could put that in a cabinet or something right like event you can legit get rid of everything on the counters

Shannon: well part of the decluttering process is going through every cabinet every closet every drawer and taking out everything that you don’t need during this process because again if it’s not a news flash guess what buyers open up cabinets avoner closets and things are just shoved in there then or they’re crowded then just says there’s not enough room there’s none specious

Adam: so you I actually really like this one so this has a few benefits its the personalizing the home because they want the buyer to feel like it’s their home not your home right it’s making the home look bigger like in our example of the countertops or like a living room that has just kind of toys and extra cabinets and all this kind of weird stuff everywhere and then also it’s gonna make moving easier

Shannon:  right right so I mean like I said you are moving so it’s just getting a really big head start so when you think about how much you should pack up on what declutter means I’m like 70% should be gone packed up and in to your point that you just said to you need to do you personalized so take down all the personal photos I think anything that’s collectibles you know a lot of people have these collections of whatever all that needs to be packed away because I’m sure you experience as don’t your buyers if they start to see personal photos they go to the person [???] yep and like I mean they start talking like it draws their attention away from focusing in on the house yes does collectibles because people stop and look at him and go oh wow this is really interesting and then the conversation divert

Adam: yeah like this guy really likes keyman like okay but that doesn’t matter this is supposed to be your house but like now I’m gonna think of this room as the he-man room

Shannon: yes do I know when I moved we moved about a year ago and as we were moving I’m going I really wish I would have gone through this stuff and thrown it away I’m getting mad I’m like I really think we need to have a garage sale now you know and then all we did if we just put it right down into the basement

Shannon: right time to start donating it have a garage sale get rid of it I mean the more [???] you the more you have to move right

Adam:  okay number six thing

Shannon:  here repairs and updates

Adam:  repairs and update

Shannon:  but repairs are different than the updates so the repairs are those things that you’ve been putting off you know like anything that’s duct taped in your house probably needs to now and those ingenious DIY projects that you’re very proud of yourself on  it’s time to pay the piper

Adam:  I had a friend whose house we’d go to growing up and they had a fan in their living room and it was missing a blade

Shannon: okay

Adam:  and it’s just like it was like walking all the time you know but for years I would go over there in the same family’s there and to them that’s like a member of the family or something now right like that’s our fan you know but

Shannon:  but you don’t see it after a while all those

Adam: yeah that’s exactly right they don’t see it

Shannon: yeah and I mean I have those I know that you know there’s you know so there’s tiny holes in the somewhere or the broken drawers they you know missing knobs you don’t see it

Adam: my sink at home when you turn it off in our kitchen you turn it off and you kind of have to move it a little bit to the right for the water not to drip a little bit you know yeah that’s something I should definitely fix before I

Shannon: why it doesn’t affect your living you know how to work it and wife is busy and it’s crazy and it’s only gonna get busier and crazier so everyone’s house has that stuff

Shannon:  everyone’s house has those things so now’s the time to go room to room and determine what is broke what needs attention and call in the appropriate handyman plumber electrician whatever it is and just address those items

Adam: okay now you’re going to talk about updates because I’ve got some comments after you

Shannon:  I know you do so yes so the updates can range from anything minor to major but I think people think some of these updates just are over the top and the there are some really simple things you can do including painting updating lighting fixtures and if you don’t have all white outlets that’s another thing and plumbing fixtures possibly are all very simple very inexpensive things that you can do to really reface a home

Adam: so here’s a common objection that we get from the seller right well I don’t know what the buyers gonna want so I don’t want to spend money painting this room if they’re just gonna come in and paint it a different color

Shannon: right and so they say inside well they’re right they’re gonna paint anyway why do I have to paint

Adam: right I don’t want to pay for new carpet if they’re just gonna rip the carpet up and put down new carpet because they don’t like my carpet

Shannon: right

Adam:  what do we say to that Shannon

Shannon: so so when I do this presentation I have a couple examples like images so one of which is like a kitchen that has this bright bold red color pane and it’s certainly a personal choice and it’s very bright it’s very bold it’s you know it’s something that I think a lot of homeowners or some homeowners would enjoy however then it gives you the after of where they took the paint color and they did something a little bit more neutral and it was just so much more calming and soothing and it really made this space feel more updated honestly

Adam:  so the answer is go neutral

Shannon:  yeah go neutral because here at the the bottom line is that homeowner wants or a potential buyer wants to feel like they’re buying something that is truly move-in ready now we overuse that term but move-in ready means that the buyer doesn’t feel like they have to do anything before they move into the house or as soon as they move into the house so painting like a bold bright you know red is something someone’s most people are gonna be like oh we have to paint that

Adam: yeah

Shannon:  it’s not really moving ready now you’re starting to create these objections

Adam: so can the seller just go in to walk into Home Depot or Sherwin Williams or whatever and say I would like a gallon of your most popular color

Shannon: yeah go ahead and get five gallons and yeah

Adam:  I would like five gallons of your most popular color

Shannon: that bad gallon bucket yeah just go through and start painting everything a very neutral color

Adam:  is that a bad idea I mean why would why would [???]

Shannon:  no I have walked into Sherwin Williams and trying to pick out a paint color for a rehab and you know when you say gray like there’s like a hundred right Gray’s like and they’ll pick it out and like though this has been the most popular

Adam: go with that one yes what kind should I get the one you sell the most of right

Shannon: what’s something neutral I’m selling my house and they’ll bake oh here you go

Adam: okay

Shannon:  so it’s it’s pretty simple now I think the other thing that that people can do is reface cabinets and this isn’t really a superheart thing

Adam: What you meaning reface

Shannon: reface basically basically paint them okay so you know in this example I have on the the side show that I do is there’s a couple bathrooms so one in particular has an oak cabinet right and the this flat large mirror and the lighting fixture it just screams 90s right so by just simply updating the the lighting fixture they didn’t change the mirror but they did add a frame to it they painted the cabinet and painted the bathroom itself it completely looked updated so you took something from directly from the 90s and made it look like it was right on trend with today

Adam: perfect

Shannon:  I mean so you can do this with kitchen cabinets as well so if you have those older I’m not necessarily older but if you have oak cabinets they’re very easy to paint and if you’re pretty confident in your painting skills and they have special paint painting products for cabinets that you can get and changing out a few lighting fixtures even adding a backsplash if you want to take it up a notch change out the countertops none of that is major but it most certainly has a huge impact

Adam: so in this we’re saying do the repairs that you found in the inspection

Shannon: and any repairs that you’ve been ignoring

Adam: and any repairs you’ve been ignoring they might like the they might not come up in the inspection right

Shannon: right

Adam:  but then also do some of these updates and the big thing is that it let’s say it costs $20 to paint the cabinet right

Shannon: right

Adam:  and you think well why doesn’t the buyer just do that because they maybe can’t have that vision they just don’t see it or they don’t want to do it or something right but by you doing it now it’s not even a question it’s already done and I believe that they will absolutely get more money for their home and sell it faster if they do some of these updates that they know the next buyer is gonna want

Shannon: absolutely so some of these bathroom examples and most especially the the kitchen examples that I have it it’s completely night and day just by doing some simple things and it’s not major construction you’re not ripping out the whole kitchen but you’re certainly changing up a few things and for just a few hundred bucks to maybe a few thousand dollars but you’re gonna get that back exponentially many times over

Adam: and I will say I think it’s frustrating it’s absolutely true I give in it’s you should do this I just think it’s frustrating and you might feel it too to go and replace a perfectly good door knob a brass one or whatever with a new brush nickel door knob right and do it for your whole house and spend your afternoon doing it’s like why this doorknob works why am I doing this

Shannon:  well you could spray paint those so you’re not wasting

Adam: there you go but the point is you will get more money that’s why that’s your only reason why because people want the updated stuff

Shannon:  right and so take those perfectly good hardware and go donate it to the restore or something like that don’t just throw that stuff away because I would agree so you’re taking these plumbing fixtures that are just fine but to create this refreshed look and something that’s updated so that you can get you know way more for your house is worth it

Adam: you know talk to talk to your realtor to like this is a big part of having us over you know I think I’ve had a client in the past where I had miscommunication and we were getting feedback the buyers aren’t liking it cuz the homes not updated the homes not updated right and then he would call me and go I put in a new furnace like that’s cool our feedback is still that the homes not updated right in his eye

Shannon: so updates are subjective so

Adam: updates in his case meant all aesthetic was aesthetic to what I want well where do I want what we wanted him to do

Shannon: so he’s like doing the roof and the furniture [???]

Adam: he was been the wrong stuff and what he needed to be doing was painting and putting a new plumbing our bathroom vanities and stuff

Shannon:  right so this is before you go through all this list this is most certainly the stuff that you can start taking charge of however I think it’s also really important to talk to a real estate agent prior to diving into the updates portion of it just because updates are subjective and so you also need to figure out who your target market is so if you you know if it’s a first-time home buyer they they might be like oh that’s great it’s new roof new furnace new new new new but this kitchens outdated here [???] but if it’s a second third time home buyer is very good chance that they will see the value in the updated systems and they’re the ones to have some experience and feel like they could maybe tackle some of the cosmetics

Adam:  we had buyers that would come to the open house they would see the blue carpet and they would literally be like backing out new furnace though hold on like red exciting it is the better sighting here than in normal houses you know they didn’t care

Shannon:  no

Adam: this stuff is important so I think that there is a happy medium you do need to know who your target market is who might be your potential buyer but this you know we keep saying have a realtor over but literally you and I both on our own have been through hundreds if not thousands of homes with buyers and we’ve seen how they react to these things and so we can come over and we can give basically share that information that we’ve been collecting over the years right

Shannon: yes

Adam:  like here’s what they’re gonna think you know

Shannon: but again it’s not it’s not personal and I think that’s a the hardest thing about selling your house is like is the mental aspect to you know home is where the heart is we love these homes and we’ve spent so much of our lives there but if you really can’t approach it from a business standpoint and disconnect emotionally from it you will make more money

Adam: okay

Shannon: to instead of just being emotional and so that’s why I do think that the agents can

Adam: number seven

Shannon: oh this is kind of seven and eight so I feel like sometimes these go hand in hand and I when I was talking about these in workshops I felt myself I found myself going back and forth and combining these two 7NA is staging and photos and you know what I I’m definitely one of those that I run around the office and will scream about photos all the time

Adam: right there’s all sorts of like Facebook groups about bad photos and stuff

Shannon: pet peeves

Adam:  talk about staging first though you have it as number seven

Shannon: I do so I do think that one of the things that you should take into serious consideration is staging so if in the dream scenario is you buy your next place your new home prior to selling your other home so that you can move out and for one you make the home totally accessible around around the clock not around your schedule and then number two have it professionally staged there’s just something at homes and at this is its name and argumentative self for more self faster when they’re professionally States

Adam: so tell me there’s two different types of staging right

Shannon: so that’s the part that’s best case scenario then if buying a new home before you move or sell is not an option still hiring a professional stager to come into the home and rearrange your furniture to kind of use your own stuff in a staged manner so we kind of set up our furniture to for everyday living so a lot of times in some of these examples I’ll give is it’s kind of all around the TV but that’s not necessarily what is the most attractive or makes look the most spacious so still a professional stager will come into the home and and kind of use your accessories move things around to really make it maximize the space and the look in the field

Adam:  I know that when I go on a listing appointment with somebody often they ask me a little bit about like what should I do like should I change this how should I move this around or whatever and I I like to tell people that I will bring in a stager you know my girl and she’ll come in and kind of suggest things to do to someone’s home that were their furnitures all still there yeah you know and she took for example uh they had like a floral bed spread and she said oh the other side is white so she flipped the bedspread over

Shannon:  right

Adam:  you know and little stuff like that

Shannon:  I thing big steps I’ve had her come into my home and we flip the rooms around so dining room is now the living room so it’s just what makes sense with what you maybe you have she’s also really good at I think having that third opinion of you know decluttering or maybe only using a few accessories so I do you know I think one thing you can do when you’re trying to go through this decluttering process it’s put off some of the those accessories and those decorations off to the side and then I kind of go in and say show her you know it’s like so here’s the pile of stuff that might work and she will pick and choose and turn things around pull the rug from one room put it in another and then put this over here and that over there and so she so it’s not bad to leave out some of those items but

Adam:  so but then if you are a person who’s moved in the house is vacant then we strongly think that you should hire a staging company to bring in furniture and accessories modern furniture and modern accessories staged the home to make it look great and because if a buyer walks through a vacant home they they can’t picture it and often they go what myself even fit in here right

Shannon:  right

Adam:  and more on additionally they’re pointing out now they’re seeing like the bad paint job or the crack in the floorboard or whatever like anything like that so they’re seeing all the imperfections more than they would if there was staging and they go look how great this could be to look

Shannon:  right so the staging diverts your attention and it makes it feel like this place you want to be and it’s also buying that it’s like it’s a it really does play into the psychology two of the mindset of going I’ve I want this I want to I want a home that’s this the this cute do you know this so even though that’s not their furniture they’re kind of almost sometimes buying into the furniture

Adam: yeah totally

Shannon: add more than they are the house but they want to feel like that that’s something that they can attain obtain and it’s just it’s a marketing trick that’s been used over and over forever years yeah

Adam: and you know my brother owns a staging company but one of the the the reason I bring that up hey Nick but the reason I bring that up is because people are often they’re tired of spending money before they list their house right and so one of the cool things is you can find his company or other companies that will let you pay for the staging at closing

Shannon: yes

Adam:  which is nice because I could say people are just tired of shelling out money now they’ve paid for inspections and all these updates and we’ve changed that all the doorknobs and all this kind of stuff so it’s nice to have a company who will kind of work with you

Shannon:  it is I mean no one said that something your house is cheap I mean if you’re gonna do it right it does take some money which is why I think you should also talk to a lender at the very beginning of the process to see what the options are can you buy before you sell okay lines of credit are going to be very helpful during this process to kind of get you through

Adam:  but our opinion is everything we’re telling you to do today that you will have to take money out of your wallet and spend money on you will get more money back is that right

Shannon: exponentially

Adam: okay

Shannon:  many times over so if you’re doing these things you’re removing all those objections you’re gonna get to a buyer to get give you an offer you’re gonna get an offer sooner and for more than if you don’t do these things and your house will sit on the market for a really long time

Adam:  so photos number eight

Shannon: photos are my…such a my favorite song and I really don’t get it and I don’t understand why the industry isn’t rolling out the agents that use cell phones cell phones do not pick up angles

Adam: but my cell phones got 12 megapixels

Shannon:  okay and that’s great that’s a really good sized photo it does not capture like it does not open up and allow you to see the room no I have yet to see anyone use a cell phone and that has really good dynamic pictures and if you can’t pull in someone to even look at your house I mean if the photo is worth a thousand words right it’s got to be it worth at least worth a few thousand dollars

Adam:  the photos incredibly important I would definitely agree the photos in our case are paid for by the realtor

Shannon: yes

Adam: right and some professional photos I should say and everyone is looking for at the home online so all they’re seeing is these photos

Shannon: right

Adam: right so we have to have really good photos

Shannon:  right so I think it’s a way the real cut corners is by just running around taking pictures with their cell phone and the worst is that they take these vertical photos with their cell phone right so vertical but your brain does not see vertically it sees horizontal

Adam: really

Shannon: so you’re when you’re looking online you can’t you’re right your buyers are passing up that as homes quicker than anything you know they’re not reading descriptions if the photos don’t draw them in they don’t go through the entire selection of photos or try to read and some phones just when you scroll through those they just pick up corners I’m like what am I looking at what corner of what room is this how you can’t get in a feel for the layout and then I feel like there’s you get pictures of furniture I’m like am i buying furniture or not

Adam: so it’s not just about the number of megapixels or whatever it’s about the lens the angles of the lens it’s about the photographer’s knowledge of how to make the room look the best how to make the lighting look the best right how to have the blinds open a certain way so you can see through them and it makes the room look better or something you know right it’s a there’s a lot that goes into it

Shannon: I mean your photos are your first line of defense I mean if you don’t have good photos you’ve got nothing I mean we we can go on and on about photos

Adam: it’s just you know really interesting we’ve seen people who literally in the house photo you can see their side view mirror in the photo because they’re literally taking the photo from their car with their cell phone that’s as bad as it gets in my opinion you know

Shannon:  yes

Adam: that’s about as bad as it gets because that’s just extremely lazy and then you will get some photos where like you can see somebody in the mirror in the bathroom whatever you know that’s also lazy and unprofessional and sort of funny I guess but the the photos are super important

Shannon: I think they’re very important and I think I’m I really am shocked and surprised I don’t know if sellers aren’t going on to the MLS or on Zillow or whatever once they’re the listing is active and looking I mean sellers need to take an active role in this process that’s what these ten things really are about right so taking an active role being in the drivers see an agent can only do so much for you so

Adam: what’s your opinion about the number of photos

Shannon: you know I think we disagree on this sometimes so I don’t think that you need to have a hundred photos I think 30 and 40 I feel like as long as you can get a feel for the layout and the selling points of the house but I think that you should also be showing every bathroom maybe a picture of the basement or every room because the only thing that if you leave it unknown then we go back to that unknown space for the buyer and going oh he says there’s two bathrooms for the other bathroom no it must be really bad okay

Adam: yeah

Shannon:  I’ll have to redo a bathroom if I go into that house

Adam: so I’m a fan of enough photos you know I don’t want to have to photos or something like that I’m kind of in depends on the house size but I’m kind of like a 15 to 20 photo guy you know I like the photographer to take a hundred and send me one hundred and you know where everything is based on our past experiences and so I had this experience like 10 years ago where the client was looking through homes and he would look through the homes and my perspective is that what he was doing is he was looking for reasons to not like a home so he could go to the next one because there’s too many homes for him to look at right

Shannon: okay

Adam: so he would look at one click click click Oh pink bathroom hate it on to the next house right and he was like I felt like he was looking for reasons not to like a home and so then it amazed me he got to another the next home or whatever and it had zero photos zero photos whatsoever and he said this one’s interesting to me I want to go see this one

Shannon: and

Adam:  we did we went inside

Shannon:  and

Adam:  I don’t know it was 10 years ago I don’t

Shannon: its clearly buy then you would have finished your story with and he bought it

Adam: yeah but my point is we went and I’d rather people come over like give me enough photos come over

Shannon: I totally disagree you don’t get a prize for the most showings

Adam:  so you don’t want just a bunch of buyers coming up

Shannon: and if I were a seller I don’t want a bunch of buyers wrecking my daily schedule because I’m still living in the house so I mean that I mean which is why it’s great if you can vacate the house but if you’re still living in the house

Adam: yeah

Shannon:  it’s it truly is especially if you have pets or kids it’s so disruptive this whole process

Adam: so is there like a compromise where we show enough but not too much

Shannon:  I think he…now i just think need to show this is the bathroom this is the another bathroom and you don’t need five photos of like from every angle in

Adam:  this house with the pink bathroom that he skipped he might have loved it if we would have gone there he might have been the best street in the coolest kitchen and most updated [???]

Shannon:  it would be it knocks it off anyway because of [???]

Adam:  I don’t think so I think he still would have bought it even though it had two pink bathroom if he loved all the other elements of the home and I might be wrong I don’t know I have no proof for that but

Shannon: yeah I think that that that’s a rare scenario I think that the buyers today are you so used to everything being an information being available to them that they’re like if you don’t and you aren’t providing the information then you’re hiding something and where you’re hiding and then then we get back to that

Adam: to different perspective

Shannon:  yes very

Adam: you heard it here first any other photo comments

Shannon: no yeah I think you just when you’re listing goes live go look at your listings online and make sure the information in the MLS is correct number one number two make sure you know the photos really showcase your your house in the best light you don’t want photos now there’s also the the camera tricks that make a super tiny room look like a mega room not just with the fisheye there’s other lenses to them to take out the fisheye but it is kind of that perspective so you don’t again you don’t get a price for them as showings you don’t want to necessarily deceive buyers into coming to look at your home and then they’re disappointed by that teeny tiny room so I think they need to be honest but in the best light

Adam:  I’m gonna have to think a lot more about what you’re saying about not wanting like the most people to come and see it as possible I’ll think [???]

Shannon:  what surprised why would you want I mean what’s you know I would say that anything you get a prize for the least amount of showings that brings you the but and

Adam:  sounds like a good debate we can have I need time to prepare my thoughts on that number nine [???]

Shannon:  pricing you can get all this right but if you’re ever pricing

Adam:  don’t over price they can make me an offer

Shannon:  that’s what a lot of sellers say why don’t they just make an offer

Shannon: because I think sellers are know that homes are selling closer to listing price or somewhere around there and they can make an offer but they’re kind of like so here the what the one thing I wanted to talk about is there’s a difference between cost versus value versus price

Adam: okay

Shannon:  so cost is history cost is what you paid for the house what it cost you to live there the costs for the updates the prepare the maintenance that’s history it is irrelevant to how we price a house

Adam: okay

Shannon:  and value is subjective so what you value versus what I value versus what the next guy value

Adam: value is what we talked about market value

Shannon: value of like amenities in the home like some you know like one person might like a jet tub and think that that’s a really great thing meanwhile I hate jet tubs I think there’s just nothing but rubble and dirty and while the next buyer goes but the value is it has a new roof as a new furnace where the next buyer that comes in is like that’s great now but this kitchen is straight out of the 70s

Adam:  okay

Shannon:  so value is subjective but price is current it’s the here and now it’s the present so price is all based on what we can price your house at right now

Adam: okay

Shannon: and so it doesn’t have it’s not based on what you think is a really great feature of your house or it’s not based on what you paid for it it’s based on the market in the current conditions timing of the year and I think it’s really important to know your competition go out and see what other buyers are seeing if they’re gonna come if you’re if you have a 3-bed 2bath house then they’re probably gonna hop back it in the car and go look at the other house that’s three beds two baths in that price point range so we’ll see what the buyers are seeing know your competition

Adam:  yeah we are

Shannon: yeah we are

Adam: and your buyers definitely

Shannon:  our point is we’re saying something we’re like okay well I just saw like two other houses you know a couple of months ago that were we more updated same amount of space and totally different price point

Adam: well we could talk about pricing a lot because you know I like talking about pricing we teach classes on pricing here

Shannon: and as you say it’s a pricing is an art it’s not a science

Adam: yeah so what happens if you over price your property

Shannon: so over pricing it tends to sit on the on the market and the longer it sits on the market by your cert to think something’s wrong with it it’s damaged some sort of defect so they just skip right over it without even even if the pictures are amazing and it checks every box that they have they just go oh but it’s sitting on the market for 200 days

Adam: what have you under priced a property

Shannon:  I think that you know you don’t want to under price and I do see some that a lot sometimes in the city I think it’s great as a buyer’s agent like City agent I’m like hey we need to hop on this and a lot of times if I’ve been working with a buyer long enough they’ll see the value in that too yeah hop on that I do see that a lot where someone will use an agent that works mainly in the county and comes into the city and there’s just it’s a very very difficult thing to price properties in the city and so it that’s where having an agent that knows your area is going to best serve you

Adam:  it seems to me like over pricing your property is always a bad idea and under pricing it is usually a bad idea but like if it’s a super hot market and you just slightly under price it then do we well we don’t want a bunch of showings you’re saying no say no we want people coming in

Shannon: yeah I think it can create a bidding war but I think that that’s a it can be a risky move you can’t just assume that that’s what’s going to happen because we don’t know

Adam: we don’t

Shannon:  sir how many buyers are out there this particular weekend that we’re gonna throw it on the market and right to price it you might just have one show up because everybody else is out of town and then they get it for the listing price and so they got a great deal but your big plan of trying to create this bidding war just it was an epic failure

Adam:  so it’s important for the people you know listening or watching our podcasts that they sort of educate themselves

Shannon:  it really does come in yeah and we have a chart yeah there’s a chart that they use this shows the that I I get from the realtor’s Association so it’s not something I created but it shows it the longer that a house that’s on the market the lower under the list price they get

Adam: yeah because what we’ll see is someone over prices their house

Shannon: Because I want see quote-unquote see

Adam:  what’s the worst that can happen we’ll just see but then everyone comes and looks at it they think it’s overpriced or they really start pointing out the bad things and then um week or a month later or whatever we lower the price to reasonable but the buyers have already written it off

Shannon: they’ve already moved on and now it’s sitting on the market like gosh it seems like great house and gray area why didn’t somebody already take that

Adam: yeah I must be missing something

Shannon: yep so

Adam:  number 10

Shannon: 10 be available it shocks me if you’re gonna stay in your house you can’t turn down a showing

Adam: don’t turn down the showing

Shannon:  yeah I I can’t tell you how often people turn down the showing and I get that it’s SuperDuper painful then it’s disrupted to the normal day life but if you turn down a showing buyers don’t typically come back and agents sometimes forget like like hey remember that house I mean because we’ve got no clients we can’t keep track of all these

Adam:  let’s just say the buyers and the buyers agents are kind of rude right they might make a request at the last minute right they might make a request even while you’re watching your favorite TV show

Shannon: yes

Adam: but you just you should just honor their request right and let them

Shannon: yeah it’s brutal because it will be last-minute it is just it’s super disruptive but here’s the thing my my my one look heavy out here is if you’re doing these other nine things perfectly you don’t have to be so just it doesn’t have to be disruptive very long

Adam: love that

Shannon:  because you’re gonna you’re gonna get you’re going to hit the nail on the head with everything you know and buyer someone’s gonna make an offer

Adam:  it is super convenient for the seller to just let all these random people come through their house during the day or at night or whatever you got a pack of your kids pack up your dogs get out of the house leave for two hours or whatever you know but it’s important for the people to be able to come through and see the place

Shannon:  right so I always advice especially for the first weekend that house is on the market like just plan to be gone go away put the dog away like the dog in a kennel for the weekend go you know to

Adam: basically stop thinking it is your house it’s starting at someone else’s house I had to sell her one time who would only allow showings on Mondays

Shannon: I do see that

Adam: a problem

Shannon: occasionally and I’m like wow I can’t even make that so now I have to find another agent because those are the times I have scheduled I have it every week on Tuesdays and Thursdays I go to do a class and so that’s ironically the only time that showings are allowed and I’m like so now I can’t can’t even get in there myself now I have to find another agent to show my beggar so it honestly never happens

Adam: yeah and if we’re gonna go out and look at six homes tonight and one of them says no we’re just happy to go look at five homes tonight

Shannon:  yep we’re fine with five and then we forget to follow backup so agents should be doing that as well sellers agents listing agents

Adam: yeah

Shannon: should be like I’m so sorry they just couldn’t make that time but we really want you to come back and be on you until you come back so but I’ve never had a listing agent do that ever

Adam: so how do people get a hold of you Shannon if they want to ask you some more questions about this amazing presentation you put together

Shannon: yes so you can call or email my email is Shannon@LivingTowerGrove.com phone number 314-583-0070

Adam: and our podcast you know we’re really trying to get it out everywhere we love getting feedback from everybody about topics guest requests questions they want us to answer on the show so we really want you to email PODCAST@HermannLondon.com

Shannon: and if you get any value out of this any value at all you’ve found one thing valuable in today’s podcast please leave us a review on iTunes

Adam: yeah we’d love that thank you very much for watching or listening and take care